I think most members recognise this 1910 photo of Lower Lachine Road wich is from the McCord Museum but wich we have in our archives. The photo is looking east towards Montreal but after looking at the photo more closely, I recognised the Hydro dam at the right in the background. I also see very faintly what may be the the Mont St Hilaire or the Mont St Grégoire behind the dam in the background. By examining these fine details on a photo, we are able to recognise many crucial subjects when doing research.
Guy
31 comments:
Hello Guy .in looking at this photo from McCord Museum, I don't think that is the Dam in Lasalle,for a number of reasons. 1: that white picket fence running along what would be Lasalle Blvd (Lower Lachine rd) would have to have been taken from above the dam (up river ) and there was nothing out there in those days ,even in the 50's & 60's there was pretty much only the Lasalle Golf Course which had no fence ,nor a need for one) 2: there's also power poles along the fence line & in early 1910,there would be no need for power poles along Lasalle Blvd above the Dam since there were no houses past 9th avenue (the Bronx in Lasalle)
3: I suggest that the river is too wide in this photo for that to be the Dam in Lasalle,
4: the Cement abutments holding up that structure is more likely to be the size of the ones that support the Victoria Bridge, and that would mean the photo could easily have been taken closer to the end of Verdun where it meets the Point, at one time this would more likely have been that view.
5: There seems to be ,what looks like a train crossing the bridge, with smoke trailing behind it,as it travels towards the South Shore. (look about half way across)
Have a look at those cement pillars & you can compare them with the cement pillars that hold the Victoria Bridge, on the thread posted a few weeks back (one of the wonders of the world )
This is just my humble opion..................................HF&RV
here's the link to compare some of the Bridges Structural Supports:
http://verdunconnections2.multiply.com/journal/item/3927/One_of_the_Worlds_Great_Wonders_at_one_time?replies_read=10
Les,
Look at this photo of the dam to compare. both photos. I'm not convinced of your arguments. For the structure to be the Victoria bridge would meen the photo was taken from about 2nd ave. where the Leblanc wharf was situated and the view does not look like that area. However, the may be something to be said about your arguments and I prefer to reserve my opinion until more facts surface.
Guy
Les,
Can you come up with a photo of the Victoria bridge of that period to be able to compare the photos.
Guy
Guy the photo could have been taken anywhere along Lasalle Blvd closer to the Point than 2nd avenue, I don't know how it even compares with 2nd avenue since there were houses (and period photos'we;ve posted over the years ) clearly showing houses along Lasalle Blvd on the river side at Leblancs,
I''m suggesting thatyou would easily have seen the Victoria Bridge from along Lasalle where the entrance to the Champlain Bridge is today,.Don't forget without the Champlain Bridge & the Ice jam bridge ,you would have a clear view right to the Victoria Bridge,
Just the photo you posted of the dam in lasalle in the previous post looks nothing like the structure in question from your topic photo. Lool at the support pillars from your photo, & the Victoria Bridge ( which I did post a link to the topic of the wonders of the worls from a few weeks back,just click on the link in my post, & you can find a number of different photos of the bridge spanning the era's in question. The Bridge is 150 years old & hasn't changed much, the supprot pillars are the same ones, ,
If you look at the photo you posted & the photo's of the Victoria Bridge ,you will see the same style,.The Dam isn't as wide as you would have us believe.from your photo,.and all the other points I suggested are still valid too.
I'm not convinced of your new photo looking anything like the one you used in the topic thread.
here's one link to NFB film about the Victoria Bridge:
http://www.nfb.ca/film/victoria_bridge_the_8th_wonder/
.and here at this link ( the same one I posted in my first post in this thread) that has a number of photos from different points in time,.you can study them if you like, Also we've posted many photos of the Dam in Lasalle over the years & none of them look like the your photo (again In my humble opinion)
http://verdunconnections2.multiply.com/journal/item/3927/One_of_the_Worlds_Great_Wonders_at_one_time?replies_read=10
have fun & remember verdun
Les,
The name Lower Lachine Road (Lasalle blvd) ends at Wellington and the road was close to the river starting from the avenues. It is hard to judge the distance but the photographer must have been from 5 to 10 miles from the bridge. This is all speculation on my part but the exercise is interesting. I think your right about the bridge been the Victoria bridge. It may be a train on the bridge going to the south shore with the smoke above it.
Guy
Hi Guy & Les !
Here is a clearer, colored version of the postcard of the scene :
http://www.memorablemontreal.com/document/image/original/HM_ARC_001943-001.jpg
We can see the train crossing Victoria Bridge southward with its smoke trailing.
JMH
Great shot JMH , Thanks ! I thought that was a train with smoke trailing it, How's things in Chicoutami these days ? HF&RV
JM,
My guess is the photo was taken from the avenues or wereabouts, what do you think ? The photo was taken in 1910 according to the McCord Museum. My guesstimate is that the photo was taken about 5 to 10 miles from the bridge. Maybe the enclosed map will help. The photo and map are from the SHGV archives of wich I have a copy in my computer.
Guy
Guy,
The map of Verdun is dated of 1899.
The postcard shows a scene from 1910.
In those 10 years, there was a tremendous urban development in Verdun as you can see from Lovell of 1910 for Lower Lachine Rd around the avenues :
So, I would suggest that the postcard (with its strong countryside aspect) shows a section of Lower Lachine Rd in Ville de Lasalle (Bronx Ward), very close to Verdun. I also exclude the areas East of Verdun as those places were very urbanized (ex. Point St.Charles).
N.B. There was a tramway in Verdun on Lasalle Blvd since 1899 (line 53-Lachine Rapids) and the line was extended upto the 4th Avenue LaSalle in 1932.
JMH
JMH,
Here are some of the facts we have to look at:
1- There are no tramway tracks.
2- We do not see the Hydro Dam wich exhisted at that time.
3- The road hugs the shoreline.
If you look at the above map, you will notice that the area that fits this description would be the extreme limits of Verdun. What do you think ?
Guy
I would suggest that it would be almost impossible to see the Victoria Bridge from Lasalle Blvd,anywhere in the Ville Lasalle Bronx area,as te river slightly turns to go past Nuns Island which is probably the only thing you might see from a Ville Lasalle vantage point,.....However there were plent of spots along the river closer to the Point where one might see the Victoria Bridge,like immediately behind Margaret Bourgeous park,but at the river, or near May St near the river (in Verdun,) don't forget that behind the Verdun Hospital Proprty would have been another vantage poinbt to easily see the bridge,or the lands near where the Auditorium is today,seeing there was Nothing there in 1910...but Ville Lasalle would not be possible......unless seeing around corners was in vogue in those days......hahahah Now the 'Vogue' on the other hand was in the Point.......but that's another story.
Have a look at an aerial map .there must be several available where a line could be drawn to see whereabouts a photo may have been taken.....there was also a spot along Wellington near the old Canadian Tire or Page auto dealership ,those were homes at one time (my oldman lived in one house along there,where the river was just beyond his backyard..... Also they used to load Ice Blocks from the River ,right near there,on the Point & Verdun border roughly. Also the ferry to Nuns Island for the Old Nuns was close to there as well ............ahhh more stuff to study.......... HF&RV
Have a look at this old photo , from Verdun along the river and you can clearly see the Victoria Bridge,.so anywhere along the river,which was a lot closer at one time due to the fact that there were no dykes in the early 1900's ( dykes meaning the dirt burm made to stop the flooding,that later became the boardwalk)
Also in this picture above, you would have to round that curve more towards Montreal to get a look at the first half of the Bridge where the train was on it, &(effectively ruling out Ville Lasalle) as it appears that to follow the river (cause that's where they put bridges .......hahaha) you would have a much better chance of taking that photo in question,from along Verdun's riverfront,closer to the Point, than pretty much anywhere else.
Again just my thoughts on the matter...................................HF&RV
ps: One other important thing to note ,is that 'any' shots from Ville Lasalle,would inevitably show Nuns Island in it..............
After sending my last comments, while looking at the Ottawa Buffalo game, I realised the same thing, we would not see the Victoria bridge that clearly from the limits of Verdun. As I previously mentioned, Lower Lachine road started at Wellington and Mullarky (Atwater/Henri Duhamel) but the road is far from the shore at that point so it has to be further west wich brings us back to the avenues. Lets see what JMH thinks.
Guy
Hi Guy & Les !
Here is the site of Héritage Montréal :
http://www.memorablemontreal.com/swf/?lang=en
We notice that in the vicinity of Verdun, only Point St.Charles is discussed. … and they refer to Lower Lachine Road in the following terms : … « At the time, the neighbourhood was agricultural, crossed by the Lower Lachine Road. ». and we can see the postcard I posted previously. I’m very surprised by this comment concerning the agricultural aspect of the Point in 1910 … as the Point is considered as the oldest industrial part of Canada.
Some remarks :
1) Lower Lachine Road never passed through Pointe St-Charles
2) As previously mentioned, in the 1910s, there was a tremendous urban development in Verdun as you can see from Lovell of 1909-1910 for Lower Lachine Rd.
http://bibnum2.banq.qc.ca/bna/lovell/src/1909-1910/5.A_street_directory_of_Montreal/L/110643_1908-1910_2079.pdf
http://bibnum2.banq.qc.ca/bna/lovell/src/1909-1910/5.A_street_directory_of_Montreal/L/110643_1908-1910_2079.pdf
So, I would suggest again that the postcard (with its strong countryside aspect) shows a section of Lower Lachine Rd in Ville de Lasalle (Bronx Ward), very close to Verdun. I also exclude the areas East of Verdun as those places were very urbanized (ex. Point St.Charles).
JMH
JMH you'd have to be a giraffe ( and a very tall one at that) to see any part of the Victoria Bridge(from Lasalle Bronx area),first of all you would have the bend in the river to contend with, as well as Nuns Island would have to show in the picture too. I believe the photo was taken 'closer' to the Point,around , River St (used to be the last street in Verdun or May Street, the river was very close to the backyards of houses on the riverside of, Wellington: and the Train Tracks separated the Point & Verdun,....if you stood near the river in that area then you would be on the right angle to see the Bridge. So if you move closer to Verdun (from the Verdun-Point border) you would be right at the part where Lasalle Blvd meets Wellington Street.and in 1910 thre would not have been the land where they diverted Wellington Strret (making Wellington a oneway, from the Point border to where Lasalle Blvd & Wellington meet) to accomodate the entrance ramps for the Champlain Bridge, so all that land was 'filled in' to accomodate the bridge, I rememeber Wellington being a straight through road & a two way street,the river was close there,and that 's where I would think the photo could have been taken from..
As for the Point being the most heavily industrialised area in Canada ,that's true, but it doesn't preclude the area having any farmland ,Industry primarily settled along the Lachine Canal ,and near the river, Margaret Bourgous had a farm along their Saint Gabriels Farm (or something like that,....) parts of it are still there,it's a heritage farm.
The photo is definely not taken from Lasalle...... IMHO. HF&RV
ps: Nowhere do I see a referance to Lower Lachine Road going through the Point,but I do see mention of the 'Photo in Question' may have been taken 'closer to the Point ,like I mentioned any where along the riverfront ,as most of the riverfront was filled in ,overtime,try to picture with NO Champlain Bridge in the way, how easy it would be to see the Victoria Bridge,at the very least you would see at least half of the Bridge closer to the south shore (as they call it) to see the first half of the bridge from the Montreal side, you would inevitably have to get closer to Montreal to see it, ( and the photo shows a train, that looks a lot closer to the first half of the bridge closest to the Montreal side............
Here's photo that Guy posted, showing the reclamation of land ( that's code for filling in the river with garbage ,and covering over the old City Garbage Dump) Look at this photo taken in 1965, and you can't see the bridge in it either(granted it's a poor photo) so if you can't see the bridge from here,then you sure won't see it from the Bronx in Lasalle ( barring you onwing the tallest pair of stilts in the world)
HF&RV
Now try looking at this shot of Verdun from the air, and you can see the many twists & turns of the River ,now unless the lens are your camera looks like a pretzel, then you would never be able to take a photo along that shoreline without seeing Nuns Island, also look at the photo closely, and you can see all the filled in area,(looks greyishor white-ish) See where the 'filled in area ' is for the Champlain Bridge,....well None of that was there,making a shot from the old waters edge much easier to take & see the Victoria Bridge...from Verdun's shoreline,where there was in the early 1900's just big fields.
:ower Lachine (LasalleBlvd) only angle it's way toward Wellington becuase of the shape of the River twisting in at that point,........................................back to my thoughts, The Photo in Question could not have been taken from the Bronx in Ville Lasalle in 1910 & see the Victoria Bridge. JMHO.
Have Fun and Remember Verdun
Les,
That seems to be Nun's island on top of the photo. We cannot see enough of the east to be able to use this photo as an example although we can see a structure on the upper left. If you go back to my 1899 map you will note that the streets are subdivided to Rockland wich was the name for Willibrord and was farmland going west and the road hugged the shoreline from that point. Wich comes back to my opinion that the photo would have been taken from the avenues.Unfortunataly today the Champlain bridge is in the way otherwise I would go back and take a photo. Objects may appear closer than they actually are. Other photos may turn up to help us solve the mystery. We may never know exactly where that photo was taken from.
Guy
Guy the aerial photo is only to show that the way the river twists & turns ,it wou;d be impossible to see the Victoria Bridge from Lasalle . I don't question that the postcard could be taken along Lasalle Blvd in the avenues ,but it would have to be taken from a point that had no houses on the riverside of Lasalle blvd, and from 2nd avenue towards the Point / Montreal, there were houses all along there,starting with Leblancs,.....but the original question or statement was that this was the Dam, we established that it is not, then the question drifted to where the shot was taken from,and I would think that there should be no doubt that it is definetly taken closer to the Point than the Bronx. and I'm still suggesting that if you study the original postcard again,you cannot see 'any' homes along the riverfront,yet you can see the Bridge which is miles away, leading me to believe that if it was taken from the avenues ,we'd see some sort of housing along Lasalle Blvd. brigning me backj to my thoughts that the postcard could have ben taken from the area closer to Wellington & Lasalle ,as the river was not yet filled in with landf for the Champlaind Bridge,...you would have a clear view from the rivers edge straight out towards the Victoria Bridge (roughly standing where they started to fill in the river for the Champlain Bridge entrance ramp........HF&RV
Here's a shot from the avenues looking towards Lasalle, You Cannot even See Lasalle from this shot,so if you cannot see Lasalle looking that way ,then you cannot see past here looking this way From Lasalle,
The River twists & turns far too often for the shot to be taken from the Bronx in Lasalle ,Remember the postcard you posted does not show Nuns Island making it Impossible to be taken from Lasalle or from the avenues at this point without seeing either Nuns Island or at least the house along Lasalle Blvd namely starting at Leblancs ( 2nd avenue) .............
Have a look at this map from a Gov't of Canada site ,(for wetlands ) but the map will help you see that drawing a straight line from Lasalle towards anywhere Near where Victoria Bridge is ,would be virtually impossible along the streches mentioned, However if you look near the the end of Verdun you Could easily draw a straight line from Verdun's shoreline towards almost St Lambert & you would see the Victoria Bridge......
Now if that doesn't help , try visualizing being able to see Ville Lasalle from the Victoria Bridge ,you would have to be able to see around corners,.....Impossible.
look in this photo you can see the Victoria Bridge, and way over to the right (almost out of sight) is the Champlain Bridge,now imagine standing on the shore of the river near the footings of the Champlain Bridge & looking towards the Victoria Bridge (with a train going across it,& smoke trailing behind) you would almost surely only see half of the bridge (just like in your postcard)
HF&RV
Interesting to visit :
Neighbourhood Old Lachine:
http://www.memorablemontreal.com/accessibleQA/en/histoire.php?quartier=15
Neighbourhood Pointe-Saint-Charles:
http://www.memorablemontreal.com/accessibleQA/en/histoire.php?quartier=14
We see the same postcard « On Lower Lachine Road, Montreal to Lachine » on both Point St.Charles & Old Lachine sites.
Caption of the postcard.
On the Lower Lachine Road
8.6 cm
13.5 cm
© Dinu Bumbaru, © Héritage Montréal
JMH
After having a second look at the photo, I would suggest the the bridge is Mercier bridge (inaugurated in 1934).
So the photo was taken in1934 or later (not in 1910).
By looking at the enlarged image, we can detect (on the right, close to the South Shore) the beginning of the typical arch of the structure of the old Mercier bridge :
Look at this post card :
http://bibnum2.banq.qc.ca/bna/carpos/c05688.jpg
Your comments are welcome !
JMH
The photo we can find on McCord Museum website :
MP-0000.892.11 | On the Lower Lachine Road, Montreal vicinity, QC, about 1910
http://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/scripts/viewobject.php?Lang=1&accessnumber=MP-0000.892.11§ion=196
JMH
Now I think you are grasping at straws,first of all there is no arch in the first postcard: second the photo you want to use from McCord Museum says right on it, 'In the Montreal vicinity',and it clearly shows it to be rather rural looking ,than the 'heavily industrialised' or Heavily urbanised'
3rd: You can't just move the goalposts by 3 decades to suit your arguement.
I think I have shown a lot of evidence supporting my thoughts, & all I see for the contrary is a 'wishlist' change the decade, change the location, that bridge would be on roller skates ,slipping up & down the river to suit the photographer............hahahahah I think the photo is one from a bridge in .hmmm let's say Indonesia ,& they just mispelled the real name ,of the road,it just looks like Lower Lachine Road in the postcard...............come on... hahahahaha HF&RV
This photo from my Album No. 38 on the Hydro Dam was taken in the 40s at the beach below the dam. You will notice that Nun's Island is in the background. If the 1910 photo was taken from the Bronx as Les says, woud'nt you see Nun's Island at the right of the photo ?
Guy
Hey look how heavily urbanised verdun seems to be:
HF&RV
note the road is now being called Lasalle Road,& still not a lot of homes in this area looking at Verdun..... hmmmmmm must be a misprint
Hi Les & Guy !
Guy, in your opening message, you wrote :
« I think most members recognise this 1910 photo of Lower Lachine Road wich is from the McCord Museum but wich we have in our archives. … »
Can you give us the URL to this first photo ? and the reference to 1910.
BTW, in memorablemontreal.com., they dont refer to any date for the postcard :
We can read beneath the postcard :
On the Lower Lachine Road
8.6 cm
13.5 cm
© Dinu Bumbaru, © Héritage Montréal
Source:
http://www.memorablemontreal.com/accessibleQA/en/histoire.php?quartier=15
___
Les, attached is a pic showing an enlarged excerpt of the original colored postcard.
http://www.memorablemontreal.com/document/image/original/HM_ARC_001943-001.jpg
(I agree with you that the arch is not visible in the first b&w postcard).
Thank you for your interest,
JMH
JMH,
The year 1910 appears on the inside cover of the Volume 13, Numéro 2, été 2008 of the "Les Agoulets" wich reads as follows:
Photo: Sur le chemin Lower Lachine Road, Montréal, Qc, vers 1910
anonyme - Anonymous
Vers 1910, 20e siècle
Musée McCord
I suggest you confirm this by going on the McCord Museum site.
As you already know, mistakes have been known to happen and we should always check, recheck and triple check our information, even then mistakes still happen, we are only human. JM, I think you may have smething there about the bridge been the Mercier bridge and it is worth looking into.
Guy
Hi Guy !
Thank you for the reference to « Les Argoulets ».
Concerning the McCord Museum website, I made a search without success in retrieving the postcard you posted.
Result of a search on McCord Museum website using the search expression :
"lower lachine road"
http://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/scripts/search_results.php?Lang=1&keywords=%22lower+lachine+road%22+&db_mccord=on&db_cea=on&db_gm=on&db_mmmtm=on&db_nbm=on&db_nvma=on&db_sagma=on&db_maum=on
BTW, you gave a good advice :
We must always check, double check and triple check … at least …
JMH
Here's a PDF file showing original sketches of the CPR railway bridge,
http://article.pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ppv/RPViewDoc?issn=1208-6029&volume=24&issue=3&startPage=480
It shows it's initial bridge having two arches,I agree that we've seen manyu mistakes listed as fact from Museums & other sources,but generally not a 25-30 year mistake. Photographs would have been more likely to be used in the 1930's as opposed to te 1910's ...
Here's a shot from around the 1930's of men from Lachine with the Train Bridge in the background showing the two arched spans,.........these men were workers from Verdun working in lachine to earn their relief cheques,VC member,Victah & his friend spotted this photo ,as Lachine after it was mis-identified by the Sherbrooke museum (bilan de siecle,sherbrooke) as being men working on the Boardwalk in Verdun, you can see the style of the stone work as being the same as Verdun's,. So we do know that Museums are wrong plenty of times,
ps: Click on the photo to enlarge it, then use the Zoom In as well if available.
HF&RV
we have clarified one thing though ,it's not near the dam in Lasalle,but as in real life ,Answering one question leads to many more............
Les,
I seem to recall that you posted this photo on the old site and we were trying to determine if it was taken in Lachine above the Lachine canal entrance.
Guy.
these men were workers from Verdun working in lachine to earn their relief cheques,VC member,Victah & his friend spotted this photo ,as Lachine after it was mis-identified by the Sherbrooke museum (bilan de siecle,sherbrooke) as being men working on the Boardwalk in Verdun, you can see the style of the stone work as being the same as Verdun's,. So we do know that Museums are wrong plenty of times,
Yes Guy it was at the Lachine Canal entrance , where they turned the waterfront into a nice green space that still stands today..... here is part of the new age area, with the Mercier Bridge in the background:
HF&RV
ps: it's a little difficult to make out at first,but look immediately on the other side of the black railings & you can see the old stone work granite pillard reminicent of the ones built on the boardwalk.........................Cheers !! HF&RV
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